Food for thought - update

I thought I should post a bit more of the conversation between C2 and myself - it's only fair to her...

Alos she had written this amazing piece about England's 'conversation' with the colonies and I just think it deserves blog-time - since she is not really blogging - which is a shame since she's a very witty, intelligent, astute writer herself. The first one posted below is in reponse to my question to her about the war being justified (because she ends up in someways being my alter ego due to the fact that SHE was a soldier herself). So without further adieu and of course with her permission:
*******************

Do I feel this war is justified? Does it matter how I answer that question?

Is any war "justified"? The Revolutionary War? Civil War? World War II? What makes one war ok, but not others? Independence? Preserving a union? Saving millions of lives from slaughter at the hands of aruthless dictator?

History books?

I think talk of whether this war is "justified" is a matter of perspective. From your perspective, the answer is a definitive no. From that of an Iraqi woman, the answer may be yes. But I think the most accurate perspective will be that of our ancesters, and only they can answer that question with any kind of clarity. Debating this now is premature.

I'm not going to armchair quarterback this war. The ones whose opinions should matter are the ones over there living it. Ask them is this war is justified. Me? I'm just going to support them for as long as they're there.

The Revolutionary Discussion
by me

(The part of England will be played by James Mason.)

Colonies: Excuse me, England?
England: (ignoring Colonies, pretending to powder wig)
C: Hello? England, we know you hear us.
E: What? Oh! Hello there! Did you get the tea I sent?
C: Wha- yes, we got the tea, thank you. Listen, we wanted to talk to
you about--
E: Fantastic tea, wasn't it? From India, you know. By the way, you
still owe me some money for it.
C: Well, actually, that's what we wanted to talk to you about. You
see, we don't feel it's fair for you to tax us for the tea when we have
no say in your government there.
E: Come now, of *course* you have a say, don't be silly! We have fine
people representing you here and they have nothing but your best
interests at heart.
C: Look, we're not children. We believe that we should be able to
represent ourselves.
E: Represent yourselves? Tell me, do you have any experience at that?
C: Well not to speak of. But--
E: And do the other colonies get to "represent themselves?" India, do
you?
India: No.
E: Ireland?
Ireland: No.
E: How about you, Australia? Want to represent yourself?
Australia: Fuck off.
E: Hah! Love to tease Australia. You see? If I let you represent
yourselves, I'd have to let *everyone*. And I'm afraid I can't have
that.
C: Fine. Then we want to be independent.
E: I beg your pardon? What did you just say?
C: You heard us. Here.
E: What's this?
C: It's a declaration of our independence.
E: (laughs) A what?
C: A declaration of our independence.
E: You think this makes you independent? It's a bloody piece of
parchment.
C: But it clearly states--
E: Look, I don't give a fuck what it says you miserable ingrates.
You're not "declaring your independence" and you're not representing
yourselves. And that's final.
C: But--
E: Don't make me some over there...
C: (mumbling, kicking stones)
E: And by the way, you still owe me for the tea.

And in response to me asking: You were a 'soldier' what do you think would happen if you were forced to shoot someone just because they did not share our country's ideals - unless you were actually being physically threatened could you do it - her answer follows:

If you want to look at it from a completely humanitarian point of view, I think you'll find the best "justification" for this war.

Under Saddam:

- 30,000 Iraqis and Iranians killed by chemical agents
- 100,000 Kurds killed during Anfal campaign in 1988
- 30,000 Iraqi Kurds and Shia Muslims massacred after Kuwait
- 40 Kurdish villages attacked with mustard gas and nerve agents
- 5000 died in the village of Halabja alone
- 400,000 children died of malnutrition
- 130+ Iraqi women were beheaded between June 2000 and April 2001

Not to mention:
- Persecution of the Marsh Arabs in southern Iraq: mass killings,
expulsions, and the draining and poisoning of the marshes
- Ethnic cleansing of "Persians" and other non-Arabs in northern Iraq
- Unlawful killings, imprisonment, torture, rape, beatings, forced
displacement and "disappearances."

Yes, Hitler killed 6 million Jews in the Holocaust. But the US and FDR also received (and continue to receive) much criticism for not stepping into the war and stopping Hitler sooner. Should we have waited for Saddam to up his tally a bit more before we finally said "enough?"


I have no doubt that the soldiers over there are going to differ in their opinions about the war. They have different backgrounds, values, and experiences to draw upon. They had different reasons for enlisting to begin with. I do find it interesting (but not surprising) that positive remarks on the war were attributed to
propaganda and toting the party line, while negative remarks were not chalked up to a lack of empathy for the Iraqi people.

But, again, the difference in opinion/reaction doesn't make this war different from any other. The Continental Army had 1-year enlistments. Fortunately, they were rotating, because at the end of each period most soldiers did not choose to stay. At the end of 1776, Washington didn't know if he'd have an army at all come January 1.

I see people every day who don't share my country's ideals. lol. The men and women over there *are* being physically threatened. What else would you call people shooting at you, ambushes, roadside bombs, suicide bombs? I find that pretty threatening and yes, I would pull the trigger.